Curse

Ensign · Feb 28, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Interrupts are weak in PvE because there's rarely anything that you really care about interrupting.

Look at why interrupts are valuable in PvP. The biggest target for interrupts these days? Aegis. Why do people bring interrupts just to stop Aegis? Because physical attackers get wrecked by Aegis, and stopping Aegis usually lets your offense go wild for a short time. Interrupts are also important to hit hard resses, to extend your powerplays, to interrupt a Ward that's keeping a team alive, and previously were key to hit Heal Party as well to make a team on the edge start to break. What do all of these have in common? They target big, important spells on the other team that prevents you from getting kills, and landing that interrupt leaves them vulnerable.

Does that situation exist in PvE? Are there mobs that are difficult to kill until a key defensive skill is interrupted or otherwise goes down?

For disrupting offense, the biggest value of an interrupt is breaking up a spike. Most spikes have some components that are two second casts, and hitting those bigger spells takes a lot of damage out of a spike. Interrupts are also great for stopping Diversions and other nasty mes effects from landing on your Monks.

Do monsters 'spike' in PvE, using a bunch of big skills where interrupting one can be the difference between someone living and dying?

The problem with interrupts in PvE is that they just aren't that sweet. You don't need them to punch through defenses, and you don't need them to stay alive. There's rarely a high-value skill in a mob that you really want to stop - and when there is, usually a Warrior or Dervish with Distracting Blow is more than sufficient to deal with it. Don't overcomplicate the equation - interrupts just aren't that sweet against the waves of trash that you fight in PvE.

Everyone who is saying that AoE doesn't have much of an effect on PvP doesn't have a clue. Why were Searing Flames hero teams such a problem in PvP? Why did Sandstorm get a massive overnerf? Why was Spiritual Pain such a huge problem in GvG? Because AoE matters.

Spiritual Pain, as a great AoE DD, finally pushed Domination Mesmers over a brink in PvP - they stopped being *Mesmers*, that picked apart opponents with surgical mes effects, and started to simply blow people up with fast cast, high damage dom nukes. Of course, they *could* still go into shutdown mode, with Diversion, Shatter Enchant, and other surgical tools, culminating in the 8 Dom Mesmer finals to the Wintersday cup.

Dom Mesmers doing good damage creates all sorts of balance problems. Making Dom Mesmers yet another AoE nuker profession - to clear out trash better - that just happens to have awesome shutdown tools is not going to be balanced in any sense of the word.

Peace,
-CxE

Redfeather1975 · Feb 28, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

We sometimes joke at gwonline that Anet regrets creating the mesmer profession altogether. LOL
It could be true.
You don't know.
By you, I mean anyone who thinks I'm talking to them.

I have no friends.
It's cold here.

czincz · Feb 28, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Dom Mesmers doing good damage creates all sorts of balance problems. Making Dom Mesmers yet another AoE nuker profession - to clear out trash better - that just happens to have awesome shutdown tools is not going to be balanced in any sense of the word.

Peace,
-CxE

Well, yeah, but not if the damage is conditional and comes through hexes ...

Backfire isn't very popular in high end gvg ...

Empathy either ...

If empathy would do adjacent damage, would that really create that much of imbalance? So, your diversion spammer can also screw a thumper's pet, the metagame has shifted 180 degrees

Spiteful Spirit is regarded as damage skill in pve :S

Mistrust isn't imbalancing top gvg games, so if power spike did some dmg in nearby range would it be?

Besides that, my suggestion is to add aoe dmg effect (but not turning them into aoe hexes mind it) to illusion skills like ineptitude, clumsiness, images of remorse, maybe sig of clumsiness ---> these aren't used in gvg anyways.

And btw, eurospike was much less imbalanced than rit spike.

Reworking few skills that have little to no use in high-end pvp anyways would be a lot less work for anet than redesigning all pve mobs everywhere and even if so, they will still have static skillbars and daze will wipe any overpowered AI healer faster than diversion spam, since AI can't ask other bots for draw conditions or blind on specific target, its just AI ...

NeHoMaR · Feb 28, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Another solution: Don't let people make new PvE mesmers, only PvP ones ... (joking

)

Priest Of Sin · Feb 28, 2007, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Another problem: Degen flat-out SUCKS. And before you argue that "omg, -10 degen is hAXX!", consider this:

An elementalist does damage, pure and simple. No waiting around, no hex removal, no nothing. Just point, click, boom.

A mesmer? Cast a spell, cast another, finish with a deep-wound hex, and what do you have? 13 energy left, and your degen was just canceled out by the enemy shadow monk using Heal Area.

Kook~NBK~ · Feb 28, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Another solution: Don't let people make new PvE mesmers, only PvP ones ... (joking

)

You should be pummelled unmercifully for that!

Haggard · Feb 28, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

You should be pummelled unmercifully for that!

It'd probably be by my alliance - the mesmers literally run it!

Utaku · Feb 28, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

We sometimes joke at gwonline that Anet regrets creating the mesmer profession altogether. LOL
It could be true.
You don't know.
By you, I mean anyone who thinks I'm talking to them.

I have no friends.
It's cold here.

Imho, good or bad in pve, Mesmer is the most original class I've seen in a role playing game. It's also the class I enjoy playing the most.
Of course you'll see more yellow numbers on screen playing as a Necro, and bigger numbers playing as a Warrior, but its a lot less exciting than nasty disruption.
Three guildies of mine recently created a pve Mesmer, and they are all addicted to it, because it might not be the fastest way to kill mobs, but it IS fun.

My suggestion for more PvE groups looking for a mesmer would be to rework ennemies skills, something like reintroducing tough monk bosses like willa the unpleasant. (The lack of good monking in pve mobs in NF is ridiculous)...
Visual effects are fine as they are, they just fit the class. Well, I wouldn't mind if all interrupts had a little comic bubble like cry of frustration.

Ensign · Feb 28, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by czincz

Well, yeah, but not if the damage is conditional and comes through hexes

Hexes are a pretty big problem in GW at the moment. Domination sticky hexes were largely ignored in the past, largely due to critical mass issues, but those obstacles shrink with every passing expansion. They are very viable in 4v4 formats, and sneak into 8v8 on occasion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by czincz

If empathy would do adjacent damage, would that really create that much of imbalance?

Uh, yeah. That skill would be nutty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by czincz

if power spike did some dmg in nearby range would it be?

Some minimal damage like Cry does? Probably not. The kind of damage that would make it useful for clearing out trash quickly? Absolutely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by czincz

Besides that, my suggestion is to add aoe dmg effect

Is there a deeper idea to this other than to try and make "purple elementalists"? Because yes, you certainly could gut some existing skills, add the energy and recharge premiums that get put on AoE skills, and call it a fix. I certainly wouldn't get excited about relegating Mesmers to being second-class Elementalists in PvE...but I concede that it would be something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by czincz

Reworking few skills that have little to no use in high-end pvp anyways would be a lot less work for anet than redesigning all pve mobs everywhere

Well of course, but would making second-rate nukers really be a solution? As long as the game is going to be about mopping up the trash, there's not going to be a lot of place for a 'finesse' profession like the Mesmer - just like water eles or hammer warriors or the like. If there's a brute force option I'm not seeing for Mesmers, great, use it. But that's what they need - their own role. Just making a second rate nuker will have a similar effect to what second rate tanks or healers get - a lot of cold shoulders. I don't consider that to be a real solution, but apparently it is one in a lot of people's minds.

Peace,
-CxE

lightblade · Feb 28, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utaku

Imho, good or bad in pve, Mesmer is the most original class I've seen in a role playing game. ...

Mesmer is meant to be the bard/fool/dance/performer kind of class that exist in other RPGs...

Now...why do you want a clown in your party?

Redfeather1975 · Feb 28, 2007, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utaku

Imho, good or bad in pve, Mesmer is the most original class I've seen in a role playing game. It's also the class I enjoy playing the most.
Of course you'll see more yellow numbers on screen playing as a Necro, and bigger numbers playing as a Warrior, but its a lot less exciting than nasty disruption.
Three guildies of mine recently created a pve Mesmer, and they are all addicted to it, because it might not be the fastest way to kill mobs, but it IS fun.

My suggestion for more PvE groups looking for a mesmer would be to rework ennemies skills, something like reintroducing tough monk bosses like willa the unpleasant. (The lack of good monking in pve mobs in NF is ridiculous)...
Visual effects are fine as they are, they just fit the class. Well, I wouldn't mind if all interrupts had a little comic bubble like cry of frustration.

What I meant by that was that the developers are probably struggling to find new ideas for mesmer skills and keeping things balanced. The mesmer is a tricky class to create new skills for all while trying to keep every aspect of the game balanced. I reckon.

Utaku · Feb 28, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

What I meant by that was that the developers are probably struggling to find new ideas for mesmer skills and keeping things balanced. The mesmer is a tricky class to create new skills for all while trying to keep every aspect of the game balanced. I reckon.

Ok, suddenly makes more sense to me.

Well, Ensign made very good points, as usual.
Please, no "purple elementalists", that would not make any sense at all.
Mesmers are good at shutting down stuff, they just need some more valid targets.

Corinthian · Feb 28, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

People just care about damage, damage and damage... The more the better, screw shutdown, skill denial, energy denial and debuffing.

Wildi · Feb 28, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

screw shutdown, skill denial, energy denial and debuffing because it isn't useful 95% of the time (pve)

arcanemacabre · Feb 28, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

It's so true... 95% of PvE really can be done by simply sitting back and flagging heroes and henchies into mobs.

A Mesmer is best suited at shutting down enemies, well, question is, what's to shut down? If your heroes and henchies can kill everything for you, why do you need a Mesmer? All you really need is a way to kill things faster, more effenciently, in order to get drops faster, and get through to your goal faster. A Mesmer simply doesn't fit into any of those gameplans.

That is the entire bone of contention, here. Mesmers need a way to help kill things faster. OR, there needs to be a shift in the way PvE works. One of those two things need to happen for people to actively invite more Mesmers into their teams.

Pakana · Feb 28, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Interrupts are weak in PvE because there's rarely anything that you really care about interrupting.

I think you're attacking the wrong enemy. Ever played UW or Tombs and seen those dryder masses, wurms and scythes? An interrupting mesmer is there worth gold!! How about FoW monks and fire elementalists? Same applies to Sorrow's Furnace. It's not that there wouldn't be anything to interrupt, or that interrupting wouldn't be good. It is good! Also it saves you a lot of damage and when your team in high DP and lot's of leavers, things get so desperate, you do want to interrupt. Sheer damage output isn't worth much, when enemies only need to look at you angrily, and your team goes down. Lost your second monk? Only hence monks available? MM AFKing? Bet your sweet behind you would care to interrupt!

There are however things that undo the necessity of interrupting. Minions and pets can absorb the high damage from mob elementalists. Healing and protection of mobs is only rarely done by more than one monster (some places in SF you find more than one dwarf priest, and that's already making the group harder to kill).

I, like many others, have said from the beginning mobs need more skills and better AI: now you can work your way through with damage output. But having played a lot PvE mesmer, I just cannot agree with you that interrupting is weak, or that there isn't anything you would care to interrupt. I'd want an interruptor (a mesmer or a ranger) every time to a mixed composition UW, FoW or Tombs team!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Does that situation exist in PvE? Are there mobs that are difficult to kill until a key defensive skill is interrupted or otherwise goes down?

In PvE there isn't enough protection among mobs you would need to interrupt it. That's been said throughout this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Do monsters 'spike' in PvE, using a bunch of big skills where interrupting one can be the difference between someone living and dying?

Yes they do, but not in many places. UW and Tombs are examples of such places. Oh, the countless teams I have seen gone down with the dryder offensive in the very first room of Tombs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The problem with interrupts in PvE is that they just aren't that sweet. You don't need them to punch through defenses, and you don't need them to stay alive.

Interrupting is actually the part of mesmer that works BEST in PvE. It's the using of hexes, life and energy drain that do not generally work good in PvE! (Yes, life drain works in UW - yes, hexes work where no hex removals - I said: generally). And no, you don't NEED to use mesmers anywhere. But it works. And interrupting works best. Admittedly, my emphasis is in the later or end game areas.

rista blodorn · Feb 28, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

The one thing I really have not seen touched on in this thread is that mesmers are great at shutting down casters and for me the few areas in PvE that give my hero/hench party trouble is dealing with high level caster bosses. I think people just are not that familiar with what mesmers strengths are so they tend to be hesitant about taking up a party slot with a class that they don't really understand and doesn't do highly visible damage.

Might have been helpful to make Norgu unlock earlier in NF or not give people an option to pick Goren or Norgu. If people had to spend a little time using mesmers (and hero's might not be the answer since many people don't have a lot of mes skills unlocked) they would better understand why bringing a mesmer along can have a lot of benefits.

Pakana · Feb 28, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimWizard

Your Entire Arguement is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. I guess i'll just have to simplify.

Mesmers already have skills that lengthen casting times of opponents. Ever heard of Arcane Conundrum? What about Migrain? I guess not. There is no need to naturally increase casting times of other classes' spells. These skills haven't saved the mesmer. The simple fact is a Mesmer's strength does not come from their interrupts. Every class can interrupt infact I would have to say that Rangers make the best interrupters.

You don't need to simplify, but we seem to disagree. When spell casting times are so short as they are today, and if the trend continues, shorter after next skill updates, the amount of spells/skills interruptable are low. And even godly reflexes, and most certainly high fast casting attribute, won't help you there. Both of your hexes are illusion line. Would you have to be an illusion-line mesmer to be an interrupter? What about those interrupting skills in Domination (Illusion-Domination interrupter, how sensible would that be)? Migraine is an elite. Arcane Conundrum lasts 5 seconds and costs 10 energy. I agree those won't save PvE mesmer!

Yeah I said it too that ppl consider rangers better interrupters. And I don't necessarily disagree with that. Interrupting is however a part of what a mesmer does. But we were talking about Fast Casting, and interrupting is where you would think Fast Casting would come handy. I made an observation, that when enemy casting times are already so short, Fast Casting attribute goes wasted since you can't possibly be fast enough. And Fast Casting would be more useful, if enemy spells took over that 1 second to cast. Where am I in error about this?

sibila · Feb 28, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

Another problem: Degen flat-out SUCKS. And before you argue that "omg, -10 degen is hAXX!", consider this:

An elementalist does damage, pure and simple. No waiting around, no hex removal, no nothing. Just point, click, boom.

A mesmer? Cast a spell, cast another, finish with a deep-wound hex, and what do you have? 13 energy left, and your degen was just canceled out by the enemy shadow monk using Heal Area.

hi ... yes i totally agree with you.

i have just finished nightfall with my mesmer, all the time while i played her i felt this class was secondary.

my ranger interupts better and at a lower mana cost.
my necro degens better.

i will still take her through prophecies and factions and buy and capture every skill, but this is only because i want a charactor from every profession.

i can never see a mesmer becoming a party player, they just don't have worthwhile skills or if they do then they cost to much to attivate and have a recharge time that is too long.

the_jos · Feb 28, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakana

Interrupting is actually the part of mesmer that works BEST in PvE. It's the using of hexes, life and energy drain that do not generally work good in PvE! (Yes, life drain works in UW - yes, hexes work where no hex removals - I said: generally). And no, you don't NEED to use mesmers anywhere. But it works. And interrupting works best. Admittedly, my emphasis is in the later or end game areas.

Interrupts are good, but I play interrupt mostly on my ranger and not my mesmer.
Ranger interrupts are more spammable and can also shut down.

I play Illusions most of the time with the clumbsiness / ineptitude combination.
Casters will attack right through them.
Interrupt with Leach and P-drain for energy. Combine with Spirit of Failure if you run Ineptitude.

When I want an interrupter, I take ranger.
When I want to have fun, I take mesmer